bluehash

Job offers on 43oh

42 posts in this topic

Hello All,

In the past month. a few job offers have popped up. I have hidden the two posts for now as I don't want it to get out of hand.

 

I'd like your input on this. Would it be ok if job offers were allowed? I'm ok with this as long as the site gets something back, since you are using a huge network, which is fair. Maybe a small amount for a user to post a job? It will involve a little planning as users can use the PM system to circumvent this.

Of course, it will be a separate sub-forum.

 

As of now.. any job offers made will be marked hidden.

 

Looking forward to your suggestions.

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I think that it is great that people are using the forum to solicit job offers but I 200% agree that the hiring party should pay for agree that there should be a fee for the privilege to hire on the site. A recruiter gets 30% of the first year salary. I don't know how much LinkedIn, Indeed or Monster get but I'm sure that it is a few hundred.

GeekDoc likes this

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A job doesn't mean a full time salary paying job. It could mean a one time small project programming task (probably true for most posts). Requiring a fee is out of a forums scope, you will have to handle double transactions and fee, which nobody wants. Just have a classified section with a pinned post as a disclaimer leaving you with no responsibilty and leave it up to the members to sort things out. Perhaps members would want to do trades or work things out differently than traditional payment for programming services.

 

best regards

sam

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On the other hand, perhaps having a "job postings" section with a sticky indicating that a "donation to the 43oh site fund would be appreciated for use of this subforum" (in particular for small/odd-jobs) may suffice...

igor, dubnet, yosh and 1 other like this

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Whatever the policy is, need to make it clear what you mean by a job offer (would also help for purposes of this discussion).

Offering somebody a piece of hardware in exchange for help getting a driver going for said hardware (or for help in

reverse engineering said hardware) - is that considered a job offer?

(There have been a few such posts on stellarisiti, one of which I have been working on.)

 

What distinguishes job offers from Buy, Trade and Sell posts?

Should there be a fee for those posts also?

 

is it a question of the form of the pay (okay to pay in goods and services, but if paying in currency then have to pay to post).

is it a question of value (i.e. if the remuneration has value more than so many dollars/euros/etc. then have to pay to post).

is it a question of community membership 

 

Without knowing what sort of job postings triggered the discussion, it is a little hard to weigh in with opinions.

 

I think small/odd jobs at least should continue to be available without fee (though requesting a donation is fine).

The cost overhead of paying the fee could easily make such posts impractical.

The site benefits from such posts (at least in the case of the driver I am working on) in that the Energia library will be published back to the community through these forums.

 

Are there other fora that already post jobs relating to MSP430?  (Maybe link to them.)

 

For big jobs (defined e.g. by value of remuneration or by hourly pay) would be okay to have a pay per post forum for them as a way of helping to support 43oh.  (As well as helping to pay for moderation of said forum.)

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This forum is a hotbed of MSP430 activity. The people who are a part of this tribe are starting to be realized as MSP430 industry experts. Is it really a surprise to anyone that companies have started to notice us?

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I am a contractor. I have been since I arrived here back in 2011.

 

I continue to invest in this community because this community has invested its knowledge in me so that, in turn, I could put food on my table. My family and I are grateful!

 

So, I am all for the job postings because I need the work!

 

I too recommend segregating the job postings in the same fashion as adafruit.com does.

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One post above mentioned donations over fees for job posting. I think it's a good idea, because it will conserve the hobbyist/free spirit of this forum, while allowing a small amount of professional hirings. Whenever you start requiring fees to post jobs, the spirit of the forum will most certainly shift to a less open community. A thing that would be a real shame to my opinion.

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Given how 43oh collects postings across a couple microcontroller lines including Tiva and STM stuff, I think postings for pay or barter-compensated contract projects involving microcontroller hardware or software development would be appropriate, even if they aren't MSP430-specific (sometimes an MSP430 may not be the right solution). I don't see a clear need to support searches for new employees, since those have a well-developed Internet infrastructure.

 

A fee to advertize for opportunities with value exceeding some limit ($10K?) makes sense, but without the limit would probably drive off somebody who wants to do an in-kind expertise or hardware swap that would otherwise fit 43oh's culture well. Though perhaps not enforceable, I'd also prefer to see requests only from principals (those who want the work done), not from head-hunters, or at least require mediated offers to be clearly labelled since they affect the contract value.

seesoe and spirilis like this

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I should clarify that my comments relate to recruiting full time employment positions on the forum. For contract or barter type work, I think that should be exempt from a fee. That opens a big gray area and would hate to propose rules that would imply lots of policing.

 

 

My message is that job postings are a sign of a healthy forum. I like the donation sticky idea because it makes things self policing.

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@@Lgbeno @@seesoe @@rockets4kids @@pabigot @@zeke @@roadrunner84 @@Rei Vilo @@Rickta59 @@igor @@spirilis

 

Thanks to everyone for your inputs. By job offers, I meant tiny projects.. not search for employees. There is Dice, Indeed etc for that which most of you pointed out.

 

Please continue this discussion. Just some points:

 

1. To be frank and honest, I do need some money coming in to pay for licenses, upkeep, server fees. When I was talking about a fee, I was thinking in one digit numbers, not percentages. Embedded engineering is not cake walk. You need to know a decent amount of electronics/software and some mechanical to know what you are doing. You get that by experience( and/or study ). Paying a tiny amount to reach a large audience is a great advantage and you get a niche audience.

 

2. There was the idea that  a developer would give back to the forums once the job is done, but I do not think that would be the case. If I was paying you to write code for my platform, I "may" want it for myself( not shared ).

Maybe if there was a check to see a developer uploaded his code for a job after it's done might work. This is tough.

 

3. Some of you mentioned Adafruit( worth more than a million ). It is a great platform. I love it. I can surely take some ideas from there. They can sustain having a free platform. If 43oh were at that stage, I would do it in an instant.

 

4. Paying a small fee may play a role is keeping posted content good. Other wise it will get flooded with requests.

 

5. As posted before, I don't want to loose the community feeling we have here. Hence this discussion. Yes, I'm more biased towards a fee based system, but hearing counter points will steer the direction that will be taken.

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"Give back" is a tricky subject. I give a discounted rate to customers who are willing to open-source any re-usable aspects of the solution I develop for them. I find that approach is not understood by most corporations, though.

 

Based on the details @@bluehash has provided I think a small (~ 5$) fixed-price fee for any solicitation is a reasonable solution: making the solicitor have "skin in the game" should reduce the spam considerably. I'd hope the micropayment infrastructure would not be a huge impediment. A "free if the result is made public" policy is probably too complex to work.

spirilis and seesoe like this

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I doubt you are going to be swamped by job postings.  If I wanted to get something done by someone on here, I'd probably private message. I'd be looking at someone who already did similar work and posted about it. Opening your post to a bunch of hobbyists isn't going to get the results you want nor is it a smart thing to broadcast your product plans.

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I see that some users have icons underneath their avatars. How do I earn one for myself? Surely, by now, I have done something to merit one  :wink:

 

 

As a distinguishing feature, could we use the icon system to tell solicitors that we are not just a hobbyist but we are available for hire too?

 

@@bluehash, would it be possible to buy a "Contractor" icon from you and have it added to my avatar?

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Now, I understand better the need for job offers. If adding such a section can generate a revenue stream for the 43oh and sisters websites, why not? 

 

I see another benefit: gaining visibility and recognition. The LaunchPads are great tools for rapid prototyping and not just blinking a LED, and hobbyists may gain recognition for their development.

 

Contrary to other forums dedicated to hobbyists' platforms

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Thanks to everyone for your inputs. By job offers, I meant tiny projects.. not search for employees. 

 

Please continue this discussion. Just some points:

 

2. There was the idea that  a developer would give back to the forums once the job is done, but I do not think that would be the case. If I was paying you to write code for my platform, I "may" want it for myself( not shared ).

Maybe if there was a check to see a developer uploaded his code for a job after it's done might work. This is tough.

 

 

"Give back" is a tricky subject. I give a discounted rate to customers who are willing to open-source any re-usable aspects of the solution I develop for them. I find that approach is not understood by most corporations, though.

 

Based on the details @@bluehash has provided I think a small (~ 5$) fixed-price fee for any solicitation is a reasonable solution: making the solicitor have "skin in the game" should reduce the spam considerably. I'd hope the micropayment infrastructure would not be a huge impediment. A "free if the result is made public" policy is probably too complex to work.

 

I suspect that those who frequent this forum and who deal with this as a hobby will usually understand at least the basics of open source.  Certainly it should be made clear at the outset who owns the code or information gleaned, but I expect that open sourcing the results is probably not a big deal for hobbyist type requests for assistance.

(Assume you meant to say fee if results not made public?)

 

Consider that $5 may be a significant fraction of the value involved in the transaction, so a fixed fee tends to favor the wealthy.  Those with a lot of money/value at stake may regard it as insignificant, whereas it might discourage small jobs/nominal value "thank you" offers, etc.  

(Consider the example of Grameen bank, etc.)

If going for a set fee, then jobs below some set value should not have to pay, and either fixed or percentage for large amounts.

(i.e., the wealthy have an easier time making more money therefore they should contribute more in monetary terms).

Consider a donation basis, with possibly with suggested value - might make more cents - there are examples where in a community setting donation basis actually makes more than set fees.

 

@@bluehash Will this policy affect just 43oh?  If stellarisiti or the other fora will be involved also, then it would be good to post a pointer on those fora letting people there know about this discussion.

roadrunner84 likes this

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@@igor Thank you for your input. I put it here in 43oh as it has a major base of the two and most are members of both. Also, it is better to have the discussion in one place. I'll cross link from there to here.

If there is a job section, it will encompass all communities.

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Personally I believe there is a big difference between a regular contribuitor posting an oppurtunity where the primary motivation is to help others (my company is offering paid summer interships for students for example) and a head-hunter merely trying to earn a fee.

 

Perhaps a rule that states if you have been a member for at least a year, have so many reputation points, and will not be directly compensated for finding a canidate, then you can post for free would be good.

 

If someone comes along who does not meet these critera then let him buy an ad on the site(s).

igor likes this

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I think the point most people are missing is this: the number of msp430 jobs out there is pretty limited. If we see 10 postings in a year I would be surprised.

 

If you look at dice.com, there have been only 4 postings in the last month that mention msp430. Of those only one was really an msp430 job. The rest were looking for general mcu experience and happened to mention the msp430

 

http://www.dice.com/job/results?caller=basic&q=msp430&x=all&p=

 

I say open it for all postings and let it get abused then reign it in if required.  If there are lots of jobs great, this site will benefit from more eyeballs and more click throughs, if not then oh well

 

-rick

RobG and zeke like this

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I'm one of the guilty parties here.  I posted a message offering a free display to someone who would collaborate with me to port a library/driver from another platform.  Igor is the one who took me up on the offer.  In our case, I don't believe a fee would be appropriate because:

1) We are sharing our work with the community.  The new library is open source and benefits everyone who may want to use that display.  It is not a commercial or "for-profit" venture.

2) I am just a retired hobbyist (although I used to be a professional programmer).  The overall value of the hardware I offered was only $30.

 

If it wasn't gonna be open to the community and/or there was a commercial interest and/or a lot more money involved, then some sort of fee would probably be appropriate.  Perhaps it might be best for now to take it on a case-by-case basis and privately and politely, ask for a donation when you feel it is justified.

 

igor likes this

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I'll point out that we're at 22 messages discussing two posts.

 

At least 4 posts.  There are the two posts that have been hidden, there are at least 2 other posts that would probably qualify as job offers.

 

I think concrete examples help discussion, so here are examples.

 

http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1899-energia-tiva-usb-support/page-2#entry6534

 

http://forum.stellarisiti.com/topic/1949-free-16x32-led-matrix-help-me-adapt-arduino-library

 

I am not trying to single out these posts or the people involved,

these just happen to be ones I knew about, there are probably others.

(Since this discussion has not been announced on stellarisiti,

I PMd the posters a few days ago to make them aware of this discussion, figuring

they would have useful perspectives.)

 

To me both of these offer appear to fall in the hobbyist area, and I think such posts benefit the community.

(With the obvious disclaimer that I have benefited from one of these posts.)

Results shared back with community.  Restricting such offers means having to police

such things - where do you draw the line, possible bad feelings from those unfamiliar with

policy posting and then getting corrected, etc.

For that matter, bluehash has been quite liberal in offering various forms of sponsorship (thank you!) -

glass keyboard matrix thing in exchange for a review, etc.  

Would such offers also have to go in the jobs offered area?

(Not saying they should, or that such offers should not be made, just that it would be nice to

have a clear policy that applies consistently - easier to document, etc.)

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